"There is no amount of pretty in the world that can cover a venomous heart."

Ah, the irony! Rhonda Huntress said that, and she also said:

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/327/85/252954/3653.html (The quote in Rio's post, sixth post down.)

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/327/85/252954/3828.html (Top post.)

Wednesday, 27 October 2010

Torley's the man!

Well, Cato's post got the attention of a Linden before it got deleted (still there for the moment, too) and it was Torley, who seems worth all the rest of them put together, and he not only fixed the spammer (for the moment - they are obviously going to have to do something about preventing future outbursts of that sort) but he responded to the three specific questions that Cato raised. I am sure that he won't mind me quoting him here, just in case his post gets ARd, or disappears when the whole thread gets suspended.

@Cato To the best of my knowledge, specific to us:
  1. Is it true that posts and threads can be suspended, rejected or deleted when a certain number of ARs are submitted? Jive SBS allows for auto-moderation by # of abuse reports but we have the option turned OFF. So no, that's not all done by machines, regardless of # of reports, real humans look at the threads.
  2. Is it true that it is not possible to ban a user temporarily? No. We can. Also, I hate to split hairs semantically but we consider "suspension = temporary" and "ban = permanent".
  3. Is it true that there are problems imposing permanent IP bans which would keep out spammers? I don't know how we use IP banning specifically with Jive. But generally, we can see if a bunch of spammer accounts have shared info (like IPs). 
So it looks like it is lazy human moderators that are simply doing mass deletes of any posts (including OPs) that have been flagged up as having been ARd five times - or perhaps they are just following instructions regarding policy. As far as being able to suspend people goes, I can only offer my own evidence that I (entirely unreasonably in my opinion, of course) was supposed to be banned from the forums *and* inworld (which is pretty unreaasonable in its own right!) for three days, but the forum ban didn't happen. That Torley doesn't know about IP banning with Jive worries me a bit, since some of the posts in the Jive support forums suggest (as reflects my own treatment) that perhaps banning (or suspension) operations don't always work.

But I'll put down getting a response as a battle win, even if the ARwar isn't yet over.

Oh, maybe someone could answer Eon's request in that thread for further information on who Cato's co-conspirators were, by telling him I was included, although I am not at liberty to mention anyone else who might have been involved, mainly because I don't actually know who else he/she consulted. I am sure Cato will be along when he/she returns from his/her morning jog along Venice to thank Torley personally and to acknowledge the plaudits of other interested parties; he/she is working to the same end as the rest of us, you know, to have a GD forum where opposing points of view can be coherently argued without arbitrary censorship.


  1. I noticed in one of Cato's posts that it was possible to even edit the offending posts and reinstate it.
    Unfortunately, as you have pointed out Pep it is an apathetic/lazy or overworked moderator (ir)responsible here, and the time will not be taken to remove offending content from individual posts.
    I notice as well that it is possible, from Torley's comments, to collate IP's to determine mass spamming. Whether they would go to the trouble of trying to determine IP's of AR abusers is not likely in my view. Which means the AR wars are going to continue unabated.
    (you were just a little late in posting my poll results concerning profanity so I thought you felt it too mundane or vainglorious)

  2. It would seem the entire thread has vanished as I couldn't even read Torley's response within it.

    Now, I don't want to get all Godwinesque, it really strikes me as worse than awful that one cannot question the running of the forums at all. I am sure I need not quote historical precedent for why Government-which-shall-not-be-questioned is ultimately unworkable, unless you have a very loyal militia, happy to round-up dissenters, etc.

    In this sense, LL is a lazy parent, replying to any criticism with, "because I said so, I don't have to give a reason, discussion end. Recurrence of this impudent line of questioning will risk your access to communications: mobile, landline and computer, until I decide you are mature enough to use them responsibly".

    Amusingly it reminds me of something my father used to say, "when you are an adult, then you can decide, until then, I'm in charge". On my 18th birthday I mentioned his (last resort) phrase to him. Father smiled and said, "ah yes, I see your point, you're quite right, very well then... when you no longer live in my house, then you can decide, until then, I'm in charge. Are we clear?".

  3. The thread is no longer standing.

  4. That's why I grabbed Torley's responses as quickly as I could. I hope that they will have been noticed while they were on public view, and I hope that he will be aware that his comments have been effectively censored.

  5. Someone, in the pulled thread, also mentioned an active Linden-employee in the Jive forum. Not sure if you guys found/contacted him as well, but maybe he knows more?
    (hope this links works)

  6. Urgh! I just hit "post" and it wouldn't let me! Anyway, to now retype a much shorter post:
    How does the info you learned help anything? We learned that the auto delete function of Java exists but is turned off (supposedly), there can be temp bans and LL can use IP info but we don't know how. How does this change anything with the Forum mess?
    I swear I'm being confused and not cranky.

  7. I had a look at that guy's profile and the last time he logged in to the Jive support forums was December 2009, so either he thinks there aren't any problems with the LL forums (doubtful in view of their crippling by the phishing attack) or he has "moved on". Or maybe LL don't want their problems exposed on a public forum . . .

  8. Nothing has changed. Torley just said that he thought the automatic deletion wasn't switched on, but the automatic suspension of a thread might be working, or they might have changed things just before he posted. It is uncontestable that threads and posts are sill disappearing without justification though.

  9. "Still(fify)disappearing without "justification" I assume that the people (and I do think it is plural) who are hitting the Report Abuse button feel justified! (smiles) It boggles the mind. Obviously I cannot post there if my little, goofy "Gee, I have a SL oriented blog now" post gets blown out of the water in less than a half an hour. Willo (Tristesse) used to joke (at first) that everything she'd ever posted to ended up deleted. Last checked though, Willo's "virtual friends" thread is still up with only one snide remark posted, both of which are amazing. Magnus said that everything he's posted has gotten deleted. Magnus? He's always ever been the English gentleman even if he does think Americans are weird (and that I am a prime example). Really, you guys don't put milk in your tea?

  10. I think Torley meant well and tried his best, buthe does not know everything (and I do not blame him). After all he is not the moderator nor responsible for the forum. We can maybe only hope he gets this further in the LL organisation, for review.

  11. Torley may mean well and may be a nice guy and provide terrific technical information and videos but I haven't been too impressed with his Forum presence. Saying "I'm not a moderator" only goes so far before it starts sounding like a sullen store clerk saying "It isn't my department" and walking away leaving you to look for the Philip's head screwdrivers all on your own.
    Torley posts in the Forum. He surely reads. He knows what is going on. He works for LL. While it may not be his job to fix it, by working for LL it should be his job to alert the person(s)whose job it is. That the Forum has been left twisting in the wind for so long, utterly abused and neglected by the company... Saying "sorry, ain't my job" doesn't impress me a lot.
    Why is it so hard for LL to say, "This is what is going on"? 3/4 of the threads are about idle speculation on how the process works and the scumbags that are gaming it. If LL would just say, "This happens, then this happens and then this happens. Post at your own risk because we don't have the manpower any more to do anything other than auto moderate." THAT would be something!

  12. I think Torley was brave in saying what he did in the post, given that the rest of the company seem (except the sacked Marketplace developer) reluctant to say anything at all to their customers!

  13. Did I miss something in Torley's comment (sincere, not sarcastic)? Brave? As I read it he answered a few technical questions—the auto delete is off, temp bans can happen and it is unclear about IP info. He said moderating isn't his job. So unless I missed something (quite possible) I don't see brave. I will give you that he said much more than anyone else has. That's not a great measure of comparison!Torley seems like a nice guy but I don't understand why everyone fawns. He's a tech guy doing tech things. He works for LL and has an "it ain't my job" attitude towards doing anything else besides tech comments. In my make believe corporation EVERY person who answers a phone for my business, everyone who writes and email, anyone with a presence IS customer service. If you see a problem, address it. That's the way I'd run things. Says the unemployed woman in the USA, the one with a failed business! LoL. Hey my employees stunk!(I was the only employee of me.)Hey!